Curse

SilentVex · Nov 19, 2010, 04:47 AM // 04:47

The bottom line: I want to play a video game, not look at blocks of text that tell me how to play a video game. It is undeniable that parts of GW, especially recent GWB content, are designed with Wiki in mind. It's bad game design and it needs to end.

The long story: I'm the kind of player that prefers to figure out games on their own because it gives a greater sense of accomplishment. I don't care if I'm the best or richest or fastest, I want to do it myself because it's fun. When I'm playing a new game or new content for the first time I don't look at guides unless I'm absolutely forced (IE: "collect 50 of these throughout the entire game with no clues as to where").

Lets start with the most recent content - tonight's newly introduced Gwen wedding stuff. Now, bear in mind that at this point there is no info on Wiki on how to do this. Perfect, right? No. I start up the quest, and am met with "go search in Kryta". Really? That'd take like 4 hours to run all over Kryta looking for something out of place (an arrowhead) without looking on Wiki. So I go find the info from other sources, and move along. The first mission ends with a "Mission Complete" and some text saying "Go search in the Jungle." Really? Again? So I go find the info, and run a bunch of friends to some emblem. My friends all get a quest from the emblem and go do the next mission, but the emblem gives me nothing. Wait, what? Was I supposed to do something before this? How was I supposed to figure out there was something else I needed to do before going to "search in the jungle." Now I'm stuck waiting for info to go up on wiki so I can figure out what I was supposed to have done. If this content had maybe used the quest system that the entire rest of the game was built around this could have easily been avoided.

You're forcing me to complete new content by looking at external sources - twice - and getting me 100% stuck because the info I need to get un-stuck isn't yet available at an external source. ArenaNet, if I were you, I would be hella embarrassed.

It would be great to say this is the only experience I've had with this sort of impossible game design in GW. Unfortunatetly, it's not. How on earth would one have ever figured out how to start the WiK content without looking on Wiki? Obviously a few people did, probably by accident, and the info got posted on wiki. How many people would have ever figured out how to complete Deep/Urgoz with CC/Necrotic without the info being available from external sources? I'd bet virtually nobody would have before they lost patience. Obviously a few people did, and the info got posted on wiki. Even the mini black moa quest was close to being over the line. Impossible game design is not fun.

If I'm having a hard time with content because I or the scrubs I brought with me didn't come prepared, or played poorly that's totally cool! It means we take a step back, figure some stuff out, and are excited when we succeed. It's fun!

If I'm 100% stuck with content because I need to go look somewhere outside the game to have a reasonable clue where something is, or what to do next, or what I did wrong to break my quest then it is simply unacceptable.

I'm not asking for the game to be fed to me, I just want it to be actually completable.

End · Nov 19, 2010, 05:03 AM // 05:03

I wonder how the people who put the info on wiki and the external sources did it...interesting thought eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentVex

Again? So I go find the info, and run a bunch of friends to some emblem. My friends all get a quest from the emblem and go do the next mission, but the emblem gives me nothing. Wait, what? Was I supposed to do something before this? How was I supposed to figure out there was something else I needed to do before going to "search in the jungle." Now I'm stuck waiting for info to go up on wiki so I can figure out what I was supposed to have done.

Funny I thought putting you next to the person who automatically starts the dialog was obvious enough.

SilentVex · Nov 19, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Hi End,

I was not placed next to an NPC. I was told my mission was completed, and was told to go search in the Jungle. There was nothing between the two the last time I was told that so I mapped out and did just that. I was not the only person that had this problem.

Quote:

I wonder how the people who put the info on wiki and the external sources did it...interesting thought eh?

With luck and/or a ton of time. That's exactly what I'm addressing.

End · Nov 19, 2010, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentVex

Hi End,

I was not placed next to an NPC. I was told my mission was completed, and was told to go search in the Jungle. There was nothing between the two the last time I was told that so I mapped out and did just that. I was not the only person that had this problem.

patience is a virtue. and also your link directs me to this thread so it really isn't helpful. Ahh you fixed it. Yeah running through the quest again and waiting 15 seconds. Honestly, thinking back to the old GW:B stuff I expected the dialog however I can see how it would be an issue. I'd rather they just make it put a recomendation that you not map out rather then complaining about the whole thing. One minor oversight as they expected people to be patient.

Quote:

With luck and/or a ton of time. That's exactly what I'm addressing.

Maybe they were intended to be somewhat time consuming? Me and a friend found the first one the hard way took about 20 minutes we just thought about the last dialoug and it wasn't an issue. The second a friend of his had found and told us where it was so I really can't speak for that one. Although it does makes sense as magesty's is pretty much the enterance to the jungle (imho) and they said they were headed towards the jungle. The third has me a little hung up. But I'm told it's bugged so I'm not really looking for it.

gremlin · Nov 19, 2010, 06:04 AM // 06:04

It would be good if nothing was posted and we all had to succeed or fail on our own, however this is the internet so that isn't going to happen.

Any quest line in the game has very quickly had posted a complete map list of foes best skills to use etc, and that isn't going to change.

So its all down to each player to play the game however they wish, no one is forcing anyone to do anything.

I got totally lost in the first part War in Kryta it got very boring and confusing with the initial parts.

I don't know how many times I visited places and searched expecting to find particular characters that I had been told were there.
In the end I gave in and downloaded the flow chart, Once I understood how it fitted together I was able to start on the interesting parts of the war.

Its a little like a scavenger hunt where some people go to location one read the clue and drive off to the second quite quickly while other end up in the pub for the evening having given up.

Guess I'm one of those who needs the easy clues rather than the cryptic.

X Dr Pepper X · Nov 19, 2010, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Bad quest/storyline design for sure. They didn't really learn from WIK.

I logged in and didn't know where to go at all. First thing I did was check EotN and talk to Gwen and nothing.

They should at least have the decency to put in where to get the first quest in a log in announcement with Hearts of the North which they still don't have up at all.

Every step you take between the mini missions to picking up the quest should be obvious and apparent.

I don't want to play Where in the World is Carmen San Diego. I do not want to search every crack, crevice, and cave in the world for Bin Laden. I want to play the game quickly with the limited time I have.

/signed

drkn · Nov 19, 2010, 06:52 AM // 06:52

You contradict yourself, totally.

Quote:

The long story: I'm the kind of player that prefers to figure out games on their own because it gives a greater sense of accomplishment. I don't care if I'm the best or richest or fastest, I want to do it myself because it's fun.

So... just go out and search for clues, like people who put data in the wiki in the first place?
Apart of bugs, which are annoying and i completely agree that the implemented stuff should be tested better, it's easy to find and complete everything. Without any guides or help.
'Doing by myself for accomplishment' = having a marker on your map, showing exactly where you have to go? If you followed the WiK storyline - if you played the game, not just clicked skills - you'd known where Keiran went and where to look in the first place.

O Bama · Nov 19, 2010, 06:55 AM // 06:55

I absolutely agree with OP. I was wondering I'm only one here who need regulary check internet when I go pve.

Shard_Fenix · Nov 19, 2010, 07:10 AM // 07:10

The point of chains like WiK is to get information from friends/guildies who have either done it themselves, or who have had someone else tell them they've done it. You aren't required to use the wiki to finish these quests. However, like any other guide on the wiki, it usually makes the process faster. Anet has been doing things like this for a very long time (see totem axe), and the feedback for them has been very good.

drkn · Nov 19, 2010, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

The point of chains like WiK is to get information from friends/guildies who have either done it themselves, or who have had someone else tell them they've done it.

...or be the first of your friends/guildies who has found and completed the new content.

Lichtenberg · Nov 19, 2010, 07:35 AM // 07:35

When i first did the WiK quest chain, i really had no idea what to do.
Then I looked up that flow chart on Wiki. That just made it worse.
Ended up having to ask a friend to get me the first quest.

Anime Divine · Nov 19, 2010, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Did you know at start of GW there was no wiki. And everyone still figured it out.
I think wiki is a great source of information to help with your gw campaign its a very big environment
Not having wiki for new players would mean that those players would get bored an quit.
As for normal quest and mission i think its alteady straightforward. But i agree WIK is a bit difficult.
To complete. Its almost impossible to keep up with lots of different stuff going on.
Also wiki doesnt just hand it to you. New players still have to find out tactics to beat the game itself.

Just Sai · Nov 19, 2010, 09:08 AM // 09:08

i approve about as much as i approve of people buying the game, installing it for the first time then getting run from one end to the other by other players.
why buy a game thats already finished?
effort = reward
zero empathy for the lazy

A11Eur0 · Nov 19, 2010, 09:20 AM // 09:20

What I'm not liking is the requirement to do the full keiran/gwen dialogue lineup (including the scavenger hunt) when I didn't have to do it before. All I had to do was beat eotn, see 4 dialogues in the Shining blade Camp, a trial, and go kill some inquisitors. now, I need to go through all kinds of other BS.

Cuilan · Nov 19, 2010, 10:34 AM // 10:34

The WiK and the new stuff don't seem to go too much into details maybe because that's how they were intended. You explore, ask people, and get a chance of feeling new again.

But overall with older content and NPCs I'd agree that more information should be given. Like a warning from NPCs that certain weapons clip with professions, etc.

SpyderArachnid · Nov 19, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Personally, I love it the way it is.

I enjoy the true aspect of this where you have to actually think with your own mind on what could of happened. If you paid attention at the end of WiK, you would have an idea of where he went and where to start looking. Then just go from there.

No one says you are forced to use Wiki. People are just too lazy to do things for themselves and use their brain, that they need someone else to do it for them. And then they complain that the storyline is too hard for them cause they don't want to spend the time to figure things out on their own.

It is fine exactly how it is. You are on a search for Thackery and need to find clues. It would be pointless if you had a quest that just lead you to all of the clues cause then you aren't really searching for anything.

Shayne Hawke · Nov 19, 2010, 12:07 PM // 12:07

The intention of a lack of quest markers for this most recent line of quests is partially because of the wiki, yes. However, a few things need to be considered for the case of actually using these quest markers. For the first thing you do in this "quest line", you need to find a trace of where Keiran went "in Kryta." That's certainly a large area to explore, and while I'd like to use the lame excuse of, "That's totally possible to do without the wiki," it's not as good as, "You should use hints given by where the Ebon Vanguard lost track of Keiran to narrow down where you begin your search." If you were given a quest marker to where the object you need to find is located, that almost gives the idea that someone has found a trace of Keiran already, and the location has already been given away. That's hardly a search of any kind. The same principle was used for within the quests themselves and other evidence-seeking quests.

The lack of quest markers allows players who don't want the answer to be given away and would like to search for the answer themselves to do so, and the players who do want the answer know where to look already. I don't see how that is poor design. I'll give you that there are probably some cases where extra quest markers to guide players along would be warranted. This isn't one of those cases.

Luminarus · Nov 19, 2010, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Solution: Add an option in the menu to turn on or off quest directions on maps. Then people who want the challenge can do it without, and people who want to c-space to get stuff done can do it that way as well.

Kook~NBK~ · Nov 19, 2010, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilentVex

With luck and/or a ton of time. That's exactly what I'm addressing.

It was widely known in-game within half an hour (hardly a "ton of time") after the update where the first clue was to be found. All it took was people in Lion's Arch discussing it and comparing notes to get the word out for each and every step of the way.

The entire GW community started in the same boat - not knowing where the clues are, just like it is every week with Nick The Traveller. And just like every week with Nick, players in LA are sharing with each other where to find this stuff. (Except with this new content, the clues are getting found much faster than Nick usually is.

Bottom line: You don't need to check the wiki for the info, just go to LA and ASK the questions. (Don't be afraid, no one will call you a noob.)

drkn · Nov 19, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

...you don't need to check the wiki for the info, you could have read all those dialogues that went on through the whole WiK and actually know where to look for the first clue without running through the whole Kryta like mad.
OMG, a game that you actually have to follow instead of mashing C+Space with your face, fix!!!!!111oneone